Prof. Israel Knohl is an Israeli biblical scholar and historian, the author of the book "From the Fountain to the Mountain" (published by Carmel and the Shalom Hartman Institute), a senior research fellow at the Shalom Hartman Institute, and a visiting lecturer at Harvard, Berkeley, Stanford, and Chicago universities. Emeritus professor in the Department of Bible at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem.

Q: Prof. Israel Knohl, in your new book "From the Fountain to the Mountain - The Hidden Roots of the Story of the Giving of the Torah", you shed new light on a very significant moment in Judaism – the revelation at Mount Sinai. You claim that the giving of the commandments and the revelation of God did not occur at Mount Sinai or in a dramatic scene, as is commonly believed, but rather beside a spring, in a much quieter place. Before we get to the crux of the matter, how did you come to think of this in the first place?

A: "I grew up within the Jewish tradition, and throughout the years I heard the familiar story of the giving of the Torah that we all know. I grew up thinking that this was the only story and there was no other. Shortly before the coronavirus outbreak, I led a seminar on the Book of Hosea, and when the pandemic broke out, we could not meet physically, so I suggested, casually, that we read on Zoom the ancient poem at the end of the Torah, chapter 33 in the Book of Deuteronomy. As we began reading the poem, we reached Moses' blessing on the tribe of Levi, and for the first time, I thought - what does it actually say? What happened there at the Waters of Meribah?"

Q: This is not the first time you have read this blessing, but it seems to be the first time you realized something about it. After about 60 years of reading the same text over and over again, you suddenly deciphered it differently.

A: "We read this blessing ritually every Simchat Torah. But during COVID, I gained a new perspective on this blessing. I understood it meant something else, and from there it snowballed. So yes, only after about 60 years of reading the same text over and over again, did I suddenly understand that the commandments were given in a different location. I attribute this insight, this discovery, to the outbreak of the Corona pandemic."

Q: The discovery you are talking about is closely related to the desire of the biblical narrators to reach an audience. This is quite an interesting angle.

A: "My general claim, in terms of the development of literary genres within the Bible, is that the writing of a story is linked to the emergence of an audience. If you want to publish a book, you need an audience of readers. However, in ancient Israel, until the 8th century BCE, it seems there was no established audience of readers. We know this from archaeological evidence, which shows few archaeological inscriptions before the 8th century BCE. Another evidence for this is the prophets – We have numerous stories about the prophets Elijah, Elisha, and Samuel, but their actual prophecies were not recorded in book form until after the 8th century BCE.

"Only after that can we find prophets who wrote down their prophecies – Amos, Hosea, Isaiah, Micah. These are the first four prophets whose prophecies were written in a book, all in the 8th century BCE. Before that, there may have been elitist writing at the royal court – a poet would sit and write, for example, about Jezebel and Ahab's marriage. But it was only for the elites."

Q: And the writing you refer to from a later period was much more widespread.

A: "It was widespread and comprehensive. For example, even the opposition had their words recorded in a book. The words of Amos, the outright opponent of the king of Israel and his official cult, are included in the book. These are sharp, oppositional prophecies that challenged the regime. By the way, it's unclear whether Amos himself could read and write, but if not – he had someone beside him who wrote down his prophecies in a book."

The beginnings of Israelite consciousness

Q: You are describing an inherent problem: if the prophet Amos, for example, did not necessarily know how to read and write, then large segments of the people probably did not either. So how were important contents disseminated when most of the people did not know how to read and write?

A: "The primary medium before the 8th century BCE was poetry. Poetry, because of its rhythms, was considered easy to memorize and transmit, and it tells us about the main events of the period. In the current book, I proposed separating what the ancient poem tells us about the foundational events from the narrative recounted later in the Torah. To my great surprise, I realized that the situation depicted in the poem is very different.

"True, Mount Sinai does appear there, but Mount Sinai is only God's starting point because it seems they worshipped him there. We know this through ancient Egyptian records, which indicate that even before the biblical period began, around 1,400 BCE, tribes in that area worshipped a god named Yahweh.

"So God sets out from Sinai, which is a volcanic mountain in Shei'r, Edom, Midian – indicating a place in southern Transjordan or northwestern Saudi Arabia. This departure shakes the mountains, but according to the poem, it is not accompanied by any speech from God. However, speaking, giving of the commandments, making of the covenant, and its violation – all take place in a completely different location, beside a spring near Egypt, in the western Sinai Peninsula. He speaks to all the people, without the mediation of Moses. So as you said at the beginning – the giving of the commandments and the revelation of God did not occur on Mount Sinai or in a dramatic scene, but rather beside a spring, in a much quieter place."

Q: Can we regard the poetry as a reliable source?

A: "Let's take, for example, the Song of Deborah, which begins with the story of 'When you, Lord, went out from Seir, when you marched from the land of Edom, the earth shook, the heavens poured,  the clouds poured down water. And then it mentions 'the mountains quaked at the presence of the Lord' – meaning, molten lava streaming down from Mount Sinai. But the opening about Mount Sinai is not the main point. The main focus of the poem is a battle between the Canaanites, who lived in the valleys, and the Israelites, who lived in the hill country, and it seems to have occurred around 1,100 BCE.

"At that time, there was no king in Israel, no taxes were collected, and therefore it was not possible to maintain a standing army. So the soldiers were actually farmers who volunteered for war. In the Song of Deborah, there is mention of a small village – Meroz – which is not mentioned anywhere else in the Bible: ''Curse ye Meroz', said the angel of the Lord...because they came not to the help of the Lord, to the help of the Lord against the mighty.' It's not 'with the Lord's help' but 'to the help of the Lord' – meaning, God needs the help of the warriors of Israel. And that village, which did not send soldiers to the war, is cursed.

"So to answer your question, I don't think a later poet would bother to mention such a minor detail. Many scholars believe that this is an extremely ancient poem, reflecting the state of consciousness of the people of Israel, in its very beginnings."

"The quiet power of water"

Q: Is it coincidental that the prominent and widespread description of the event at Mount Sinai was associated with a dramatic, volcanic phenomenon? The story about the solid spring did not resonate with the people, perhaps because it was perceived as less memorable.

A: "The poem, along with all its beauty, is a text written in a language that is not always easy to understand. In addition, the Torah was sanctified as the founding document that is read on Shabbat and during the week. Moreover, the thundering and roaring volcanic revelation certainly has a strong visual and auditory effect. It leaves a powerful impression, instilling fear, and becomes etched in memory. But the spring has a different uniqueness. It is etched in the national memory by the demand for one God – 'There shall be no strange god in you' (Psalm 81:10). This is the core of monotheism, which demands a profound change in religious practice. So at the spring, there is a foundational event, not dramatic, but on a level of content that profoundly affects religious life."  

Q: But this commandment is quickly violated.

A: "Part of the people violate it and worship other gods because they were asked to go against their habit, against what was acceptable. Monotheism was revolutionary at the time, but ultimately – that revelation by the waters, which is based on the commandment not to worship other gods – has survived until our very days. This shows the power of it."

Q: "Still waters run deep." In the book, you also refer to the narrator. What do we know about him? 

A: "He takes the core elements from the poem and creates a volcanic motif, endowed with greater authority since everything that was said to Moses at Sinai by God carries immense weight. I believe the narrator was affiliated with prophetic circles, a fierce opponent of the official cult and the golden calves. He opposes prosperity and splendor, and encourages a simple and elementary cult with stones and ashes, without hewn stones, silver, or gold. He is against the priesthood and believes that all the people of Israel have a status of holiness – 'a kingdom of priests and a holy nation', that is his motto. The narrator opposes the king, and in a socio-economic way cares for and supports the poor and weak in society through relevant commandments. He is a religious-social reformer."

Q: In the book, you also refer to the role of Moses as a national leader, and not as one whose role is to mediate religious knowledge. Does this make religion more egalitarian, and more accessible?

A: "Yes, because we are used to looking at the biblical religion as prophetic, with Moses as a founding and establishing figure. In the poem, Moses is much more of a political leader, who leads the children of Israel when they cross the Red Sea. He is not the one who mediates religious knowledge, which according to the poem is transmitted equally to everyone. We do not need a religious establishment to mediate between us and God, because we have direct access to God."

Q: How is this approach manifested?

A: "The question is whether a person needs to go to Bethel, where he will meet God and speak with Amaziah the priest of Bethel, who will mediate the word of God for him; or whether a person can go to the sons of the prophets, who sit in all kinds of tents, devoid of splendor, silver, and gold – and they are the ones who will mediate religious knowledge for him. The narrator takes a traditional approach that testifies to a more egalitarian and accessible religion, as mentioned."

"Society drives progress"

Q: What does the traditional approach you mentioned, which makes religion accessible, attest to?

A: "I think this tradition attests that the public, in general, as a whole, holds more power than the leadership.  According to the poem, it is essentially the public, not the leaders, who are important and decisive. The public is the one that leaves its mark, has direct contact with the divine, and needs to internalize the fundamental commandments.

"The tradition of the poem, written in a pre-monarchic society, in the period of the Judges, a time when there was no king in Israel, without a permanent regime – is a tradition that believes more in the people and its strength, its survival, than in the ruling figures. This tradition entrusts the people with the responsibility of preserving tradition and culture, alongside recovery and revival after severe crises."

Q: This is a message that resonates greatly with our times.

A: "Absolutely. For example, the poem describes a terrible civil war within the tribe of Levi: 'Who said of his father, and of his mother: 'I have not seen him'; neither did he acknowledge his brethren, nor knew he his own children; for they have observed Thy word, and keep Thy covenant.' An enormous crisis that tears families apart, with strife and disagreement. But the people still have the strength to overcome this internal war. I think this is a wonderful message for our times.

"I believe that even today, we must have faith in the strength of society and the public, even if the leadership fails. It is the society that drives progress. Even during a harsh civil war, there is no need to panic. The people have resilience, and I sincerely hope this is what we will see in these times as well."

Q: How are your new insights received in the world of biblical studies and academic research? Surely, some strongly disapprove of them.

A: "The book was only released three weeks ago, and so far I have received positive responses from academics, but we have to wait and see."

Q: Will the religious establishment accept your thesis? 

A: "I don't expect great things, but it's important to remember that I'm also not writing for the religious establishment, that's not my target audience. However, I'm aware my books are studied in the yeshiva world. There are yeshiva students who keep my book 'Sanctuary of Silence' under their Talmud. This book delves into the priestly literature of the Torah, and at the time it was quite innovative.It didn't receive much enthusiasm from the academic community back then, but today it has become widely accepted as the consensus."

Q: Will this also be the case with the current book?

A: "I don't rule it out, but it takes time, perhaps many years. We'll wait and see."

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1.

We haven't even had time to bid farewell to our sukkahs and Simchat Torah is already upon us. It is difficult to find a parallel to Simchat Torah in other cultures. It is not just a religious holiday, but a holiday in honor of the intellect, the very act of studying, the Torah, and everything that derives from it: customs and Halacha, constitution and law, morality and philosophy, history and culture, and more. The joy in the Book determines our relationship to it, even before we engage in studying it. In the thousands of years we have existed as a people, we have built on the foundation of the Torah a tremendous textual and intellectual skyscraper, the likes of which no nation has bequeathed its descendants. Each generation donated a room or a whole floor and populated it with books and ideas. And every one of us can, if we so wish, visit every floor of this magnificent building and draw from the fountain of generations.

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As ambassador to Italy, I used to visit the various synagogues in Rome regularly. As is the custom of the exiles, in Italy Simchat Torah is celebrated as a two-day holiday. On the first day, the holiday is celebrated as written in the Torah: "On the eighth day (of Sukkot) you shall have a gathering..." But it is only on the second day of Simchat Torah that they would finish the annual Torah reading cycle as in Israel. My children had remained in Israel and the coronavirus was in full swing. On the eve of the holiday, I called home and asked my daughter Darya, who, at the time was eight-and-a-half years old, if she would like to join me for the end of the Torah cycle.

Video: Thousands attend Sukkot 'Priestly Blessings' at Jerusalem's Western Wall / Credit: Reuters

2.

She replied enthusiastically that she would love to and together we read the verses of Torah portion and I explained to her the meaning of words that were difficult for her to understand. For children, there is no essential difference between the linguistic registers; the only difference is that one is vernacular and the other is literary. We noticed in the last chapter of the Torah that the important thing for Moses before his death was to see the Land to which he had led his people but would not enter.  "Moses went up from the steppes of Moab to Mount Nebo, to the summit of Pisgah, opposite Jericho, and the Lord showed him the whole land …. And the Lord said to him, 'This is the land of which I swore to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, I will assign it to your offspring. I have let you see it with your own eyes, but you shall not cross there." How sad it is that Moses did not enter the Land he dreamed of, how sad it is for a leader not to complete his mission. But how important it is to learn from them that it is not our duty to finish the work, but neither are we at liberty to neglect it, because each generation carries, in its own way, the march of existence of the People.

"So, Moses the servant of the Lord died there… and [the Lord] buried… and no one knows his burial place to this day." So, do you understand, my child, what grace was bestowed upon us when Moses' grave was hidden from us? Otherwise, we would have become a religion based around a holy tomb and the People would have made pilgrimage to Moses' tomb; with time his stature would have grown until he had transcended mere flesh and blood. But the Torah of Moses is greater than Mosemessenger the idea is greater than the man who was its messengers and therefore it is eternal.

"Now Joshua son of Nun was filled with the spirit of wisdom because Moses had laid his hands upon him; and the Israelites heeded him, doing as the Lord had commanded Moses." Despite the pain, Moses made sure he had a successor, and that the People of Israel would accept Joshua son of Nun as their leader. Moses laid his hands upon Joshua; in other words, he entrusted Joshua with his authority. A people accustomed from its very dawn to a leader who took care of them like a father would feel orphaned in his passing and therefore it is important to make sure there is a worthy successor.

3.

These are the last verses of the Torah: "Never again did there arise in Israel a prophet like Moses—whom the Lord singled out, face to face, for the various signs and portents that the Lord sent him to display in the land of Egypt, against Pharaoh and all his courtiers and his whole country, and for all the great might and awesome power that Moses displayed before all Israel." And then spontaneously we both said to each other over the phone "Hazak, hazak, ve-nithazek" [a Hebrew phrase meaning "be strong, be strong and may we be strengthened" that is said on completion of each of the Five Books of Moses).

The prophecy of Moses is different from the other prophecies. The image employed in the Torah is that of a close and intimate relationship between Moses and his God (the Sages and commentators expanded, but right now I am studying this with my daughter). What was special about Moses, was it the signs and wonders shown against Egypt and Pharaoh? All right. I suggested reading Rashi's final commentary on the Torah: "Before the eyes of all of Israel – This refers to the fact that his heart inspired him to shatter the Tablets before their eyes, as it is said, '(Thereupon I gripped the two Tablets and flung them away with both my hands) And I broke them before your eyes.' (In other words, this was a spontaneous act by Moses), and the opinion of the Holy One, blessed be He, regarding this action agreed with his opinion, as it is stated that God said of the Tablets, "Which you have broken," [which implies] "May your strength be fitting [well done!] because you have broken them."

The final thing that Rashi wanted to stress at the end of the Torah was the act of breaking the Tablets after seeing the golden calf. Moses was also an educator. He understood that if he gave the people the Tablets despite what they had done, they may have replaced the golden calf and worshiped the tablets because they were the work of God. By breaking them, he taught the people that it is not the physical tablets that matter – important as they may be – but the words and ideas engraved upon the Tablets. As with the story of the burial of Moses, it is not man who matters, and certainly not the stones of the Tablets, but ideas that transcend time and remain even after a person dies and the stones have crumbled.

4.

And then we read from Genesis and rushed on to the Haphtarah. Dad, what's a haphtarah? When a person dies, we say he has passed on and we bid him farewell. When we finish reading from the Torah portion, we bid it farewell by reading a similar portion from the Prophets known as the Haftarah [which comes from the same Hebrew root as niftar – deceased]. "After the death of Moses, the servant of the Lord, God said to Joshua son of Nun… 'My servant Moses is dead. Prepare to cross the Jordan, together with alltheses People, into the Land that I am giving to the Israelites. Every spot on which your foot treads I give to you, as I promised Moses…As I was with Moses, so I will be with you; I will not fail you or forsake you. Be strong and resolute."

Joshua steps into big shoes, so God strengthens him and instills in him confidence that he will succeed in the great task of bringing the People into the Land and establishing a kingdom there. You see, my daughter, even great people need reinforcement and encouragement, even a mighty sea needs strong rocks to crash on.

5.

Then my daughter Darya remembered that while she was still in kindergarten, when we read the weekly Torah portion together, she asked when we would study the book of Joshua, and maybe it was time because she was very curious to get to know the man who replaced Moses. So, we decided to study the whole book. The next day she called me in Rome and said she had eaten too many potatoes and wasn't feeling well; perhaps, she asked, we could read the second chapter of the Book of Joshua together, until her stomach settled. And so, thanks to the potatoes, we learned the chapter about the spies, about Rahab in Jericho, and the scarlet cord in her window. Darya read aloud the last verse of the chapter: "And they said to Joshua: 'God has delivered the whole land into our power; in fact, all the inhabitants of the land are quaking before us'."

And this conversation with my daughter was far dearer and precious to me than any conversation with the country's nobles and its great leaders: A father and his daughter studying Torah, he in Rome, and she in Rehovot, Israel, oblivious to the bustle of the world knocking at their door.

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"Take care, there should no dances on Simchat Torah. There is no greater desecration of G-d's name than if because of Simchat Torah we lose a life," Netanyahu told Haredi radio station Kol Barama radio.

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"Pray outside, keep the guidelines, and thus sanctify both the Torah and life."

''The Haredi public is dear to me, I love them very much. I saw the mobilization of the Haredi public during the first wave and the rabbis' calls to adhere to the directives. The Haredi public lives in greater density and that makes it more difficult, but it does not exempt us from trying harder… You should protect yourselves very carefully, follow the rules."

Netanyahu also referred to the "herd immunity" phenomenon, for which parts of the Haredi sector are supposedly aiming.

"There is no such thing as 'herd immunity,'" the prime minister said.

"Herd immunity means death to the herd. It is a death sentence for many thousands who will die. We have seen what is happening in other advanced countries that have gone this route."

He added: "No one is persecuting the Haredi sector and I will not let that happen. But on the other hand, there is no special treatment either. If there are concentrations with [a high rate of] infections then it does not matter if it is Haredi, religious, secular, Arab or Jewish, right-wing or left-wing. Everyone must abide by the rules, we aren't persecute any community, we are going after the virus and the disease," he said.

In the same interview, Netanyahu assailed the Blue and White Party over its demand to pass a budget for 2021 immediately.

''We agreed and enacted a law that the 2020 budget would be approved in December and at the same time the 2021 budget is being prepared. This is the law they approved and unfortunately Blue and White denies it. They should stop being an opposition within the government," he told Kol Barama.

''Their endless infighting is dragging us to the polls; it's time to stop with that. While they are busy with politics, I am busy around the clock fighting the coronavirus," Netanyahu added.

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