He hasn't been a minister in three years, has been outside the coalition for six months, and barely sets foot in the Knesset. And yet there is no issue on the national agenda that Shas chairman Aryeh Deri isn't involved in up to his neck. Operation Roaring Lion? He sat in the dramatic cabinet sessions. The draft law? In the Haredi community, his word is final. Ziv Agmon? (Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's former top aide) He called him "a proud baboon."
Now Deri sits down for a rare interview and tells us what it was like facing Trump, what the Mossad promised on the eve of the war, the far-reaching plans for Lebanon, and what would have to happen for his 18-year-old grandson to enlist. And also, why does he want a different coalition after the election.
Q: Did we win?
"Yes."
Q: A decisive victory?
"I don't understand the phrase 'decisive victory.' Did we go into this campaign facing a grave threat to the Jewish people, and thank God we pushed back that threat in a very significant way? Clearly yes. The opposition loves to use pharmacy words – 'strategy' and other lofty terms that we 'baboons' don't understand – so let's speak in their language. After October 7, we were at rock bottom in terms of the entire region and the entire world, when everyone saw the images of the motorcycles taking our people captive, and for nearly an entire day, we couldn't tell left from right. Look at Hamas in Gaza today. We've already had several rounds against Iran and Lebanon. Not a single rocket has been fired from Gaza; that threat no longer exists. Today, the safest place in Israel is the Gaza border communities – people went there during the war because it was safe."
Q: Now, on Iran.
"What did we want to stop all these years? Just the nuclear weapons story. We never dreamed we could strike inside Iran. So we started with Operation Rising Lion, when our planes flew through Iranian skies and caused enormous damage and halted the race to nuclear weapons. That's true – they didn't eliminate everything, because the nuclear material was deep underground. But we neutralized most of their scientists, struck heavily at the entire weapons industry, and pushed them back months or years."
But that wasn't enough, Deri stressed. "We saw that the Iranian people are a very strong people with an extraordinary industrial base and fierce determination and hatred, and they drew lessons. First, go deeper underground so that even the United States can't strike them deep in the earth. They were already at a stage where they were starting to move their missile industry and their weapons industry underground, too. Within a few months, we would not have been able to do anything. Everyone talks about nuclear weapons, but the ballistic threat is no less dangerous – in some ways even greater – because you don't use nuclear weapons quickly, but ballistic missiles? freely."
Q: So on the nuclear question – what did this operation actually achieve?
"Oh… look, I'll leave that to the IDF chief of staff and the military. I'm sure they'll present it in an orderly fashion."
When the protocols are published
One day after the ceasefire announcement, Israelis had a sense of confusion, with some wondering whether the promises now being made weren't a replay of those made at the end of Operation Rising Lion.
"Something happened to the Iranian people as a result of Operation Rising Lion, because of the terrible economic situation," Deri explained. "It started in the great bazaar in Iran, with merchants revolting because you needed suitcases of banknotes just to buy one dollar, and Trump decided on his own initiative that he wanted to help the protesters. The truth is, at that point there wasn't yet the readiness – not on our military's part and not on the American military's part – to carry out an intensive operation beyond a pinpoint strike.
"This is the story with Netanyahu – the opposition praises the military, military intelligence, the pilots, and at the same time spits on the prime minister and the government as if it were all a failure. The chief of staff and the Mossad director said all along that without the United States, Israel had nothing to gain from going into this operation alone, and Netanyahu brought Trump. All they asked of Netanyahu was that the Americans give their consent and provide protection. Nobody dreamed the Americans would join the attack."
Q: So in all honesty – if you were taken back in a time machine to the day before the operation, when you raised your hand in favor, and someone told you: major achievements, but the regime won't fall, the uranium is still there, and about half the ballistic threat remains – would you have been disappointed?
"You're young, so you'll probably see the protocols when they're published. I certainly won't live to see them. You'll see that we hoped all the other plans in play would cause the Iranian public to rise up and bring about a change of regime. But that was not the stated goal, nor was it a promise Netanyahu made to Trump.
"It's like the Dayenu of Passover – for this operation, it's more than enough. Far more than I expected. I never dreamed the Americans would go with us for 38 days and drop close to 20,000 munitions there."
Q: So you weren't disappointed when the ceasefire came?
"No. I thought that given where we'd arrived, a replacement regime hadn't emerged in Iran, and on the other hand, there was very great destruction – on the contrary, maybe the nuclear material will be brought up in negotiations. I tell you again with full responsibility – Netanyahu did not say to Trump and to the American administration anything that, God forbid, we didn't believe to be true."
Q: OK – so we didn't lie. But maybe we were wrong to think there would be regime change, and we misled the Americans?
"No, no, no," he answered flatly. "War is like a cholent [a slow-cooked Shabbat stew] – you know what you put in, you don't know what you get."
Q: But you don't promise that the cholent will come out in a particular way.
"Yes, we presented to them a plan for how, based on the data we had, if all these things came to pass... The goal was to create conditions for the regime's fall, and I think we created those conditions. That's actually why I think the ceasefire is a blessing – there's a greater chance the regime will fall from within. Iran begged for a ceasefire. They're presenting it – together with our own opposition – as an Iranian victory. To my great sorrow, that's very nice cooperation between the two of them. But you can see that in the end they stopped the fire for two weeks with no commitments at all, and now even Lebanon, which was one of their conditions, that's not happening either."
Between cabinets
During the war, reports emerged of a certain disappointment with Mossad promises that the war would bring regime change in Iran, which did not happen.
Q: Were there Mossad plans for toppling the regime that didn't come to fruition? Netanyahu himself spoke of surprises.
"The military achieved above and beyond. The Mossad, which was more responsible for the regime-change plan, has not yet reached. I say 'yet' because in my assessment it will be reached very soon."
Q: Will we see a regime change in the near future?
"I believe so. By the way, Trump believes the current regime is far more measured and responsible than what came before. In a certain sense, I agree. The diplomatic figures there effectively forced the ceasefire because of the constraints, not because of any genuine change of heart. They understood that within two weeks Iran would go bankrupt."
Q: "And aren't you worried that Israel's gains come at a cost – a growing sense in America that we dragged them into a war that wasn't theirs?"
"That has nothing to do with Iran. We have a problem with the Democrats, and somewhat with some Republicans, too. But precisely because of that, this period with Trump in power is a major opportunity for Israel to cement its regional standing. In the end, the Americans – whatever administration – will understand that their real ally is us."
Q: Looking at the broader picture, you sat in the dramatic cabinet of 1991, when the US president told Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir not to attack Iraq in response to the Scud missiles, and after 35 years, another president is with us in a coalition and tells everyone else to go to hell.
"That's beautiful – I hadn't thought of it that way. I remember that cabinet meeting on a Saturday morning, and Shamir's distress. He understood intellectually that small Israel could not respond against the will of America. By the way, I supported him. And today everything has been turned upside down."
Q: Now, Lebanon.
"Look at Hezbollah. Fourteen months after we reached the agreement, we've killed close to 500 operatives in the field, and not a single bullet has been fired in the north. The fact that Hezbollah has now rejoined the fight is because it saw that we eliminated Khamenei, and there's a very real danger that the regime funding it will disappear."
Q: So we weren't surprised?
"Not in the slightest."
Q: Because you know there's a gap between what you, the chief of staff, and the prime minister say – and what the public felt, which was that this episode was behind us.
"First of all, people still don't know the details of the massive blow they took during the holiday. A blow – because we went into their most deeply hidden locations inside apartments in Christian neighborhoods and Druze neighborhoods, where they thought they could run the operation and escape the army's long reach, and they were eliminated there. I'm not saying we're done or that they can't fire. This is not Hamas. But we are now several kilometers inside Lebanon. The army is not leaving until Hezbollah is disarmed. There is no force in the world that can bring us back until the agreement is honored."
Q: So we'll stay there for years?
"Years."
Q: But will northern residents be able to return soon without sirens?
"They're already back there – most of the northern residents have returned and the situation is much better now. Hezbollah is deterred, and it fired only because of Iran. Who's begging for a ceasefire now, tell me?"
Q: Meaning Hezbollah wants to stop fighting now, but we have demands.
"Unambiguously."
Ben Gvir's transformation
Deri, after Netanyahu, is the most veteran player on the political field, with experience across cabinets and governments over the years.
Q: You've been in the cabinet for 38 years. A man like Itamar Ben Gvir (National Security Minister) – are you comfortable with him there?
"Look, he has undergone a very great change. Not a single word from the most classified discussions has come from him. He demonstrates responsibility even when his position isn't accepted. Is he worthy? When I hear Yair Golan speaking against IDF soldiers and saying the elimination of Khamenei was a mistake, Ben Gvir is conducting himself more responsibly than he is."
Q: By the way, what exactly are you doing in the cabinet? You're in the opposition.
"I am not in the opposition. I am not in the coalition. Look – I am part of the Israeli people."
Q; Yair Golan is also part of the Israeli people, and they don't invite him.
"True. I'm not outside because I'm disappointed in the government or because it's against us, but because of the situation that arose with the legal system's persecution of Torah students who have been declared deserters and are wanted for arrest."
Q: Will you return, and will there be a draft law [for the ultra-orthodox community]?
"The prime minister is determined to pass it in the summer session."
Q: And I'm telling you the chances are slim.
"I don't know. Forgive the comparison, but the landmines that Yuli Edelstein [Likud Knesset member and former Defense Minister], Yoav Gallant [former Defense Minister], and the legal counsel planted in the draft law are like the mines in the Strait of Hormuz. That's why it depends more on the Haredi parties whether there's a draft law this summer or not."
Q: But let's talk on principle. People say to themselves – look, Deri sits in those rooms sending our children to fight, to be wounded, God forbid to die, while his children aren't in the army. How does he allow himself?
"Most Shas voters – or even a large majority of Shas voters – serve, and sadly are killed and wounded and put in long days in reserve and active duty. The best proof is the double envelopes – in places where Shas gets more than its proportional share. Most of our Knesset members served in the military too."
Q: The question is not about Shas Knesset members – it's about their children.
"Wait, wait, wait – don't think I'm apologizing for Torah study. With all due respect, I represent a very large community of people who serve, and everything I do there is to bring back the hostages and protect the soldiers. I genuinely believe that the Torah students who sit and learn, whose Torah is their profession – they are the defenders of the Israeli people."
Q: And those who don't? Do you agree with the former Sephardi Chief Rabbi, Rabbi Yitzhak Yosef, who reportedly said that even someone who is idle should not go to the army?
"No – he didn't say such a thing; I heard different things. Throughout all these decades, I served the great Torah sages of Israel – Ashkenazi and Sephardi – and I was at home with all of them: Lithuanians, Hasidim, Sephardim. Their emphasis was always unambiguous – we protect those whose Torah is their profession."
Q: And those who don't? Because Yuli Edelstein said, "I have one test: let the first Haredi leader come and say that those who don't learn should enlist." So I'm asking Aryeh Deri – is that what you're saying?
"If the army knows how to meet the criteria – and it has started to – but sadly, we know the army is not there yet. I think the Hasmonean Brigade [a newly established IDF combat brigade designed to accommodate Haredi soldiers while maintaining their religious lifestyle] is a very great advance toward providing a spiritual and Haredi environment where the criterion is that whoever enters Haredi – leaves Haredi."
"The economy was blessed during two years of war"
Q: How can you sustain an army when a growing segment of the population doesn't serve and doesn't participate sufficiently in the economy?
"I believe Torah students protect the Jewish people."
Q: If they protect Israel, where were they on October 7?
"You know what – maybe it's thanks to the Torah students that we overcame the crisis of October 7 and came out stronger? It's hard for me to convince you of that."
Q: Let's set aside the philosophy. I'm just asking – practically – there's a Kohelet Forum study that says every Haredi family receives 15,000 shekels [about $4,165] a month from the state, while every non-Haredi family contributes 9,000 shekels [about $2,500] a month. How long can this model hold when the Haredi public is only growing?
"First of all, it's a good thing it's growing. I won't tell you what would have happened with families of one or two children and continued emigration – what would remain? Secondly, there is a blessing on the Jewish people – look what happened to the economy over two years of war."
Q: What is the economic model? Sometimes miracles run out.
"The economic model is the Torah of Israel, which says 'I will command my blessing' – that if you keep the commandments, there will be blessing. Believe me, there are already tens of thousands of academics, or many thousands who studied at a prep program for a few months, did the core curriculum, passed their matriculation exams, and today have their degrees and are in the high-tech market, and in the market for lawyers and doctors."
Q: How many Haredi doctors are there?
"That's because the issue of medical faculties in an academic framework where Haredi Jews could study didn't develop sufficiently. But in other fields, there are a huge number."
Q: You yourself also told students – God forbid they should volunteer. Do you want to clarify or apologize?
"Come on, Amit – sadly, there is no respect for facts. I went to encourage 14 and 15-year-old students learning Torah in their own world. I told them to focus on Torah."
Q: Your grandson is already 18, right?
"I have several grandchildren who are already 18. Will any of my grandchildren go to the army? Not yet. But keep watching. You ask what my legacy is – for my sons, for my grandchildren? I do everything so they can sit and learn Torah."
Q: Do any of them go to the army?
"Not yet. But keep watching."
Q: Would you be proud to be there when he finishes basic training?
"Amit, you're asking questions – come on. I aspire for them to be fully Torah-observant. But on the other hand, I want those who don't learn Torah to use their talents, but to stay religious. I'm very concerned that God forbid he goes to the army and he goes off the path. As for Hasmoneans? If he's happy with that and it's his path..." (pauses)
Q: Do you understand the absurdity?
"Why?"
Q: You sit there in those rooms sending people to their deaths, in the most justified circumstances there are – and you still can't bring yourself to tell me, "Listen, I would be proud of him if he went to serve in the Hasmonean Brigade."
"You ask what my legacy is – for my sons, for my grandchildren? I do everything so they can sit and learn Torah. Of course, most of the Haredi public is not fully Torah-observant. Now listen – don't have any doubt – I hear all the deep concern of the opposition leaders about Haredi enlistment. Some of my colleagues think that under a left-wing government, the draft problem will be solved. On that, I agree with them."
'I am part of this responsibility'
Q: Did you demand that Netanyahu fire Ziv Agmon, who said Moroccan Jews are "baboons"?
"The prime minister knows my position, and I won't go into the details. An apology can be accepted, but remaining in such a position? With all due respect, no. I think I was among the first to come out with a response, and a fairly sharp one at that, but I knew the prime minister, at the same moment I was responding, was deep in the bunker running the war, so I didn't want to burden him and issue an ultimatum. But the message got through, and he acted."
Q: Your allies in the Gur Hasidic community say you fell in love with the cabinet and neglected the draft and the Haredim.
"Look – one month after the government was formed, I received a court ruling that I couldn't enter as a minister, and I didn't make a big deal of it. My colleagues continued, and Rabbi Goldknopf continued in his roles, and Rabbi Gafni, and everyone continued in their posts – until they decided to leave a year and a half later. This isn't a prize for me, it's a burden I'm taking on, because I am part of this responsibility. With all due respect, to stand for two years under the pressure of the hostage families and take blows in conversations, I could also have run from reality and said, 'I'm not a cabinet member, I'm outside.' So it's a shame – it's an almost laughable argument – to say such a thing. And by the way, the director general of the Housing Ministry, who is a Gur Hasid, is still in his position – so let them leave me alone."
Q: Who will be the next prime minister?
"Netanyahu. I'd be happy if the coalition were broader, and I'd be happy – God willing – if Benny Gantz crosses the electoral threshold."
Q: God willing?
"Yes, why not. And as for Naftali Bennett – are you sure he'll cross the threshold? I'm not."
