In a special interview with Israel Hayom ahead of the Jewish new year, Prime Minister Yair Lapid promised that he would not shy away from acting against Iran to prevent it from having a nuclear program, even without US approval. Lapid, who became prime minister in June as part of a rotating premiership agreement with Naftali Bennett that was invoked due to the dissolution of the Knesset and a decision to go early to the polls, also spoke about the prospect of winning another term in office and whether this would be possible with the help of the Arab parties.
Asked if "Israeli children are safe from Iran," Lapid said, "From the first day, we have been telling the Americans that we will engage in the most heated debate you have ever seen behind closed doors and will make you see intelligence you will have never wanted to see. But we will not deliver speeches in Congress against you; we will not get into the US political fray. We have already seen how ineffective this is, but we are going to reserve the right to act without clearing this with you or giving you a heads up; we are not going to commit to informing anyone."
Q: Perhaps you woke up too late, now that a nuclear deal is almost a done deal?
"We have been dealing with this over the past year. I flew to Riga to discuss this during the coronavirus pandemic to discuss this far away so that no one could see me talk with Secretary of State Antony Blinken."
Q: Will this stop the bomb?
"We will do whatever it takes to stop the bomb. The Americans are not going to deal with this [the nuclear deal] until the midterms, but we will continue working on this issue nonstop. Even in 2015, despite Israel's incessant efforts to prevent the deal, it was concluded. The world views this issue through a different lens. Does Israel have the capacity and ability to stop Iran from becoming nuclear? The answer is yes."
Q: Will Israel use this ability in the near term?
"We will do everything to prevent Iran from becoming a nuclear state."
Q: The US has been very critical of Israel when it came to the death of Shireen Abu-Akleh, it tried to meddle with the IDF rules of engagement, has not given a green light to sell the Iron Dome to Germany and Joe Biden has not picked up your calls. Have relations hit a road bump?
"This strange story on a phone call that he supposedly refused to accept, where did it come from? Biden was on vacation. His people asked us if this call was urgent, and we answered that we needed to talk in the upcoming 10 days because there is a piece of information that needs to be discussed. I said this was not urgent."
Q: How could it not be urgent if the US was on the verge of concluding a nuclear deal?
"Think about the other side of the coin. You request a call with the president and when they ask you if it is important you answer 'Yes' and then he picks up the phone only to discover it is not urgent. How serious will they take you next time around? A person in this office must be able to think long term, and without emotion."
Q: What is the most important thing that has happened to you in politics?
"It happened just last year before I became prime minister. I was standing at the Mauthausen concentration camp and the Austrian chancellor told me, 'We are sorry before Mr. Lapid that we killed his grandfather.' My entire political journey was worth it just because of that moment."
Q: And what is the most important thing that happened to you as prime minister?
"I have an answer but I can't share it with you."
Q: Something maybe?
"I am sorry, I am not going to compromise state security. What I can say is that the falling of IDF officer Maj. Bar Falah is a painful tragedy that I will carry with me for the rest of my life.
Q: Do you share the feeling that Israel has been paying a much-too-heavy price for being too humane on the battlefield?
"No, absolutely not. I am the first to say that you have to rise up and kill those who threaten you. The fact that we are a nation of laws is not a weakness, it is a strength; this is where we get our strength. Judaism views morality as power. We are not militias or a rag-tag army and this is how it should remain.
Q: One of the videos online against you shows you talking about a situation in which a soldier stands with his troops near a kindergarten in Gaza even as he faces enemy fire. If he doesn't respond, his men will die; if does respond, children will die. The clip claims you don't have an answer to this situation.
"This is yet another example of the toxic attacks against us. This video was taken from a lecture on the Holocaust and the two conclusions one can draw from it: that we cannot rely on anyone but ourselves, and that we have to uphold morality. I said that in Israel, this could eventually mean we would find ourselves in such scenarios, such as in a situation. Is there an Israeli soldier who would order, 'Bomb a kindergarten so that all the kids die.' No, I don't think so."
Q: So what should soldiers do if a terrorist shoots at them from a kindergarten?
"You cannot ignore the probability that there are children there. A democratic and Jewish state doesn't kill children."
Q: You are ignoring the basic premise of us vs. them.
"No, in both cases it's us before them. A country that doesn't target kids is a strong country. The goal of that lecture was to make it clear who the enemy is. To highlight that Hamas is the one using kids as human shields."
Q: So you don't have an answer?
"No one can have a boilerplate answer for a complex situation."
Q: What would you expect the officer to do in such a situation?
"To retreat with his troops, to call in for air cover, and to use a multi-faceted response. They can wait nearby, and do the things that extremists in the likes of Itamar Ben-Gvir won't like."
The interview comes just before Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, as Israelis take stock of the past year and change their overall tune to a more conciliatory one. But it is also just weeks away from what could spell the end of Lapid's political career, with polls showing he is neck and neck with former Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu over who can emerge victorious and secure enough support in the Knesset following the national election.
"Let's talk about Israeli society. I think everyone has erred in constantly talking about unity. What is that a mistake? Because the reaction to such statements among the Israelis is 'Why should I unify with something that outrages me?'. People on the Left and on the Right can't see themselves coming together with the extremists. This kind of discourse takes the truth out of the conversation. We were wrong; we must not engage in this charade of unity; we must talk about respecting, not unifying. I think we can respect people who think differently."
Q: But some cynics would say that the only reason you are saying this is because you want to court the Haredis.
"I have no problem engaging the Haredim as someone who respects them. Take for example the disagreements over the core curriculum."
Q: If this becomes the deal breaker for having them join your coalition, wouldn't you relent the way Netanyahu has?
"I will not give any pledge that would have them exempt from the core curriculum."
Q: So what are you willing to offer them.?
"Any party that subscribes to our basic coalition guidelines would be welcome. A Netanyahu partnership with the Haredim would spell disaster for the state."
Q: You are 59. Where are you going to be when you turn 60?
"Here, at the Prime Minister's Office."
Q: Are you sure?
"I think I will be here. I will make every effort, but it ultimately rests with the Israeli voter. I am not sure that Israelis are troubled by this question right now on the eve of Rosh Hashanah."
Q: How will the elections end?
"When I get the results, I will have an answer."
Q: Things are not looking good for your parliamentary bloc. You don't seem prepared.
"When I get the results, I will have an answer."
Q: But what can you say?
"Let's drop this issue; I am not going to discuss polling numbers."
Q: It's not polling. It's your preparation.
"That's speculation."
Q: Your failure to have Meretz and Labor run together on the same list is just speculation?
"When I get the results, I will have an answer."
Q: Some have criticized you for not being able to lead the bloc because of your failure to get mergers.
"I am sitting right now in the Prime Minister's Office. It is a good indication that I know how to do politics. Netanyahu may have got his bloc in order, but he lost the election [in 2021]."
Q: Will you agree to a government with Gantz that would not have you serve as rotating premier?
"When I get the results, I will have an answer."
Q: Why do you never speak about him?
"He is an excellent defense minister, you won't hear anything bad about him coming from me."
Q: I get the feeling you don't really like Otzmah Yehudit leader Itamar Ben-Gvir.
"I don't know him; never spoke to him."
Q: Do you believe him when he says he has changed?
"I don't. I think he represents a dangerous phenomenon. Someone who until two years ago had a picture of [Jewish terrorist], Baruch Goldstein, on his living room wall does not change. This so-called change was too fast and conveniently suits his political needs."
Q: Do you feel the same disgust you have toward Ben Gvir when you hear Joint Arab List MK Waleed Taha say, as he did during the recent operation, that he stands by the Gazans or when he says that LGBT people are perverts?
"The difference is that there is no chance Taha could convince thousands of Israelis to agree with him. Ben-Gvir could.
Q: What Taha said is bad.
"I think the problem with Ben-Gvir is worse because he has been convincing young Israelis to follow his lead. Taha will not convince a single Israeli to join him.".
Q: But still, don't you think it is problematic that you have ruled out partnering with Ben-Gvir but not you have not said the same regarding Taha?
"I won't sit together with Ben-Gvir. He has been a disgrace to us."
Q: What about Taha?
"He is not part of who we are, so he does not disgrace us, he is not part of me."
Q: He is part of your coalition.
"My coalition comprises eight parties that were built in a certain constellation. Are his views influential? No. We have passed budgets and decisions that are more pro-LGBT than any previous government."
Q: I assume you are going to once again say that you do not like his views.
"They are difficult to hear; I am against them and disagree with them."
Q: You see, you once again use that line.
"More than that – I have been at the helm of a party that does exactly the opposite of those views. But just before Rosh Hashanah, I don't want to talk politics; let's talk about the political-media discourse that has all but ignored substance: The upcoming election is on where the new government will take Israel. We present a better alternative on substance and on values. The other side thinks differently. The problem is that there is no debate on the substance. For example, why is no one asking why we have succeeded in fending off a bad agreement with Iran, unlike the previous government? Likewise, we managed to get a deal with the teachers union and with the medical residents. These are the serious issues that go beyond which headline each tabloid has to run, or what the latest political outrage is all about."
Q: I noticed that you have not mentioned tackling the cost of living as one of your successes. You also don't mention the middle class in your speeches. Maybe because you have been a total failure on this front over the past year?
"Cost of living is no longer just about the middle class. It's been affecting every Israeli."
Q: Has the middle class buckled?
"No, but it has found it hard to get by. But it understands that the government can only do so much over the short term."
Q: Are you sure middle-class Israelis think this?
"I believe Israeli voters are intelligent and have realized this. We have a smart electorate."
Q: They also remember all your talk about the cost of living as a campaigner and they have seen prices go up in the supermarket and in their rent going up to new highs.
"Over the past year, the cost of living has been growing exponentially all over the world on a scale not seen in years, because of the effects of emerging out of the pandemic and the ongoing war in Ukraine. This happened during my watch. Israel has been disproportionately affected because this spike hit us after 12 years that we had no action on this front."
Q: So it's Netanyahu's fault?
"We were handed over a country that has one of the highest costs of living. The person who had been prime minister should be held accountable. Netanyahu ran a campaign on the cost of living in which he could be seen filling up his tank for the first time in his life. He then dropped this theme because everyone realized that he caused this problem, and therefore cannot be its solution. We are engaged in a fight; shifting from one thing to the next: from gas prices, to the bread. There is no one-size-fits all solution to how to solve the cost of living; those who believe they have such a method are lying. This is a defensive battle, but it won't be won overnight."
Q: The Bennett-Lapid government has been in power for more than a year. When does the "Netanyahu is to blame" become obsolete?
"I have not used it; you mentioned it. I have been prime minister for two months. You cannot pin the cost of living on me."
Q: Has anything changed on a personal level since you have become prime minister?
"I see the kids much less often. I don't see my mother that much, and she has been increasingly scolding me. I have less time to see my friends. But this is by no means designed to sound like complaining. I am doing things I believe in. Some things I have managed to maintain."
Q: Like what?
"The training sessions, the food, the Tuesdays with my daughter Yael [who is autistic - Y.S.]."
Q: How do you do that with all the security measures?
"My wife Lihi brings her home to Tel Aviv and that's where we meet."
Q: There have been claims that you don't really live in the official residence in Jerusalem. You put up a post on moving there, but you have stayed in Tel Aviv.
"We evenly split our time between the two places. On Saturday I am in Tel Aviv with my family and then on Saturday night, I go to Jerusalem, where I stay throughout Monday. On Tuesday I go back to Tel Aviv and on Wednesday and Thursday, I am usually once again in Jerusalem. There are two magnificent rooms there. Lihi and I feel like two college students who now study fine arts. It's really nice."
Q: People are very interested in your personal life. You were spotted near an ATM and then people said you were there just so you could show that, unlike Netanyahu, you are an ordinary person.
"That was a very bizarre incident. I was on my way to the barbershop, so I went to the ATM to withdraw some cash. But it turned out that the machine for taking out money was moved nearby, so I then went to the right to get to the machine I needed. Someone took a photo of me [near the first machine], and people started crying foul that I had staged this. When we looked at the reactions, it just dawned on us that this is so out of whack that it does not merit a response. But it says something about where we are as a society. The willingness to believe all the bad allegations on the other side at every given moment without a shred of evidence – is dangerous. Israel has become a victim of this attitude on the world stage, more than any nation. What is antisemitism? It is believing the very worst about people without any evidence. We are the biggest victims of this attitude and now we have imported this here and lob it on one another."
Q: Maybe because we are living at a time when people no longer believe politicians who keep changing their views 180 degrees.
"There are two moments in Israeli history that made Israelis suspicious: The Oslo Accords and the settlement enterprise. The Right woke up one day to discover that someone far away pulled a fast one on them. THe Left woke up one day and saw that people had placed trailers overnight and formed a settlement.
Q: That may be a philosophical argument, but the reality is much simpler: people saw how Naftali Bennett and Ayelet Shaked promise one thing and then go do the exact opposite. They saw blatant lies over the past year.
"I understand, but I still think there is a big difference between historical processes and specific disappointments."
Q: Forming the Bennett-Lapid "change government" was not a historical process?
"Correct, it was a historic moment. I would be the first to say so. Every historic move involves painful choices, otherwise, this would not be a historic milestone. What Naftali did was an exemplary display of leadership when facing a difficult and complex situation."
Q: Or maybe it was all planned, when Operation Guardian of the Walls began he said the "change government" was off the table to quell opposition. Was he lying?
"Since I was 50% of this process, I can tell you this was no lie. He truly believed at the time that it was the truth. I told him, 'You are wrong; you will see that things will continue,' and that is what happened.
Q: Has he disappointed you?
"Not at all
Q: You were his deputy. You gave him backing, and he just jumped ship.
"That is not what I feel."
Q: It has been reported that your relations were tested after you refused to grant him special privileges as an ex-prime minister.
"That is just nothing here."
Q: Did you talk about this?
"No."
Q: How has he been handling the Iranian portfolio?
"He is very much engaged on this matter."
Q: Some say that prime ministers become divorced from reality as soon as they enter office. How aware are you of the latest viral trends?
"Very much so."
Q: So you know who I am referring to when I say that there was a bride that drove Omer Adam crazy?
"I send Ms. Ben Asulin on behalf of the entire country my warmest regards over her wedding and I am very happy for her. As someone who is about to see his son get married [the wedding took place after the interview on Friday, Sept. 23], I believe that having a happy daughter-in-law is a good thing and that being too judgemental is a bad thing. Regardless, I am not disconnected. I have this mechanism that can filter out what is not important."
Q: You know a thing or two about Israeli society. The criticism heaped on the bride eventually became a discussion on society as a whole. What did you think?
"I think what's online is very different from reality. I sat with Lihi at a coffee shop and about 15 people came up to us and showered praise on us. Lihi was awed and asked me, 'What is going on here?! When I look at your Facebook I see only vile comments, swear words, vitriol, and hate.' I told her that the people who come and express their love are sometimes the very people who spread hateful comments. Do the Israelis you meet on the street have an iota of the cruelty and aggression you see online? I don't think so.
Q: Let's talk about the important things – when was the last time you ate shawarma?
"Wow, it has been a few years."
Q: Really?
"I need to remind you that I am the son of Tommy Lapid, who was at his thinnest 300 pounds. It's a constant struggle between him and me. If you want to win you have to steer clear of shawarma."
Q: How can you survive without it?
"I have self-discipline. I still train for 50 minutes every day. It has also become the time of day I get briefings."
Q: But everyone needs shawarma.
"Why shawarma? Once a week I have a cheat meal. In recent weeks I have tried to start having a weekly dinner with my wife at a restaurant."
Q: I saw you went out to Dixie. Did you get the wings?
"I don't like wings. I ate a Philly sandwich. I am glad we are having this very insightful discussion. We have moved on from the topic of how to have Israelis respect one another to discuss these matters."
Q: That's what life really looks like. For example, when was the last time you took a siesta?
"On Saturday. I also do power naps of 10 minutes, something only a few people know how to do. I have a couch in the office. I just sit with my earphones and doze off for 10 minutes."
Q: What music do you listen to?
"It's a wide spectrum ranging from Bruce Springsteen to Mozart."
