It began as a lighthearted conversation between two Jewish comedians, riffing on a podcast about the idiosyncrasies of their shared heritage. But after talk turned to Israel, it didn't take long for Marc Maron and Seth Rogen to spark an uproar.
Their comments about Israel -- especially Rogen saying the country "doesn't make sense" -- infuriated many Israel supporters and highlighted the country's tenuous relationship with young, progressive Jewish critics in the Diaspora.
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Israel has long benefited from financial and political support from American Jews. But in recent years the country has faced a groundswell of opposition from young progressives, disillusioned by Israel's West Bank settlements, its perceived exclusion of liberal streams of Judaism and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's relationship with US President Donald Trump.
"What Seth Rogen said is par for the course among our generation and the Israeli government has to wake up and see that their actions have consequences," said Yonah Lieberman, spokesman for If Not Now, an American Jewish organization opposed to Israel's presence in the West Bank.
Rogen's remarks follow a dramatic shift by an influential Jewish American commentator who recently endorsed the idea of a democratic entity of Jews and Palestinians living with equal rights on the land between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. Peter Beinart's argument that a two-state solution -- Israel and Palestine -- is no longer possible sent shock waves through the Jewish establishment and Washington policy-making circles.
For many Jews, Israel is an integral part of their identity, on religious grounds or as an insurance policy in the wake of the Holocaust and in a modern age of resurgent anti-Semitism. But polls have shown that while most American Jews identify with Israel and feel a connection to the country, that support has waned over recent years, especially among millennials.
Some have even embraced the Palestinian-led BDS movement, which calls for boycotts, divestment and sanctions against Israel to protest what it says is Israeli oppression of Palestinians. Israel accuses the movement of waging a campaign to delegitimize its very existence.
In the podcast, Rogen, who appeared in such smash comedies as Superbad and Knocked Up, talked about attending Jewish schools and Jewish summer camp while growing up in Vancouver. He said his parents met on an Israeli kibbutz.
As they continued to chat, Rogen appeared to question why Israel was established.
"You don't keep all your Jews in one basket. I don't understand why they did that. It makes no sense whatsoever," Rogen said. "You don't keep something you're trying to preserve all in one place especially when that place has proven to be pretty volatile. I'm trying to keep all these things safe. I'm going to put them in my blender and hope that that's the best place to, that'll do it."
Rogen then said he was "fed a huge amount of lies" about Israel during his youth. "They never tell you that 'oh, by the way, there were people there.' They make it seem like, 'the (expletive) door's open.'"
Maron and Rogen both joked about how frightened they were about the responses they would receive from Israel's defenders. Their concerns were justified.
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Rogen's comments immediately lit up "Jewish Twitter." They unleashed a flurry of critical op-eds in Jewish and Israeli media. And they prompted Rogen to call Jewish Agency head Isaac Herzog.
In a Facebook post, Herzog said he and Rogen had a frank and open conversation. He said Rogen "was misunderstood and apologized" for his comments.
"I told him that many Israelis and Jews around the world were personally hurt by his statement, which implies the denial of Israel's right to exist," Herzog wrote.
In an interview with Haaretz, Rogen said he called Herzog at the urging of his mother and he denied apologizing. He said the comments were made in jest and misconstrued.
"I don't want Jews to think that I don't think Israel should exist. And I understand how they could have been led to think that," he said.
Rogen also said he is a "proud Jew." He said his criticism was aimed at the education he received, and he believed he could have been given a deeper picture of a "complex" situation.
Ironically, Rogen was on the podcast to promote his new movie, An American Pickle, about a Jewish immigrant to the US at the start of the 20th century who falls into a vat of pickle brine and emerges 100 years later. He called the project a "very Jewish film."
Lieberman, from If Not Now, said the uproar shows "how much the conversation has changed" about Israel among American Jews.
Shmuel Rosner, a senior fellow with the Jewish People Policy Institute, a Jerusalem think tank, said Israel should not be expected to change its "security and foreign policies" based on growing estrangement from Jews overseas.
But he said it can take realistic steps to close the gap, such as establishing a pluralistic prayer site at the Western Wall, long a sticking point between Israel's Orthodox establishment and more liberal Jews in the US.
"It's a challenge for Israel. It's inconvenient. We want everyone to love us, especially other Jews," he said. "Israel can do certain things to make it somewhat better."
